Ash vs Evil Dead S01 E02: Bait Discussion [SPOILERS]

[MaidOfKandar]

COMING BACK WITH REPLIES!

Good catch on the fly buzz, Joe; that was actually a pretty neat, subtle note.

I wonder what kind of significance "here" might have. Will the letters re-arrange at a certain point?

@Joe - is one of the posters on Kelly's wall from the same band that Mia was into in the remake? I'm trying to figure that out and pause-stepping didn't help me at all.

 

[eViL DeAdiTe]

So...at this point is Kelly (or anyone else for that matter) supposed to be in-the-know about how the evil came back, and that it's Ash's fault?

I mean, putting aside her incredibly underplayed reactions to everything that happens to her parents between episodes 1 & 2 (really hoping Dana finds her groove because so far she's the weak link IMO) does she ever "get" that Ash is responsible for the desecration of her mother, and the death of her father? Not only did he release the evil, but he's the bait - aka he's the reason Kelly's family is targeted. Really hope they address this at some point...

Otherwise, fantastic episode, and LOVED the interaction between Bruce & Mimi. 

Keep em' coming!

 

[KingRob]

Seven pages? SEVEN FREAKING PAGES?

dammit... I'll be right back.

 

[chainsaw_master]

I liked this one better than the first episode. It was a lot tighter and more focused. It felt like Evil Dead and it had some cool visuals even though the director wasn't trying to copy Sam's style. The atmosphere was great and the different tones were really well balanced. The whole episode had a nice energy to it. Ash was great and Mimi Rogers was fantastic.

A few minor observations:

- Seriously, cut it out with the CGI blood. There's just no need for it and it sticks out like a sore thumb. At least CGI wasn't used as much as it was on the first episode, but they really need to at least try to do as much as they can using just practical effects and avoid any unnecessary digital enhancements. The only enhancements they did so far that kinda worked were on the deadite girl in the first episode after she gets half of her head blown off. Everything else has been terrible. Low budget practical effects are charming and endearing. Cheap CGI effects just look like cheap CGI.

- Sorry, but I have to bring up that moment when the deadite got his head knocked off by an oncoming car. What about the driver of that other car? Didn't he notice it? Did he call the cops? He just decapitated someone with his car! It felt really weird to cut straight to Ash and Pablo talking in the car as if nothing had happened and as if nobody was driving that other car. I know this is very nit-picky, but still, I think they need to pay more attention to details like this. It's the first time we're seeing Ash dealing with deadites in an open world and around other people who have no idea what's going on. I really wanna see him having to deal with the repercussions of his actions. We're seeing a little bit of this with the cops searching for him and investigating the trail of dead bodies he leaves behind. I'm interested in seeing where this goes, but they need to be more careful with the way they have Ash and the deadites interacting with the world around them.

- Yeah, I agree that deadites are giving up too easily. It was specially weird in this episode, when Ash killed Kelly's mom. I kept waiting for her to at least open her eyes after the decapitation and yell "we'll swallow your soul!" or something like that, but no. The evil force apparently just conveniently gave up and left the premises after she got decapitated. I guess that particular kandarian demon had better things to do that night. The only deadite so far that didn't stay down after getting their head cut off or getting part of their head blown off was the tattoo girl in the first episode.

- It looks like next episode will give us some clues on how exactly Ash had the Necronomicon in his trailer. I'm eagerly waiting for an explanation on how the book is still intact, since it was destroyed by the end of the first film. I really hope they do address this at some point. If they don't, it's going to be very disappointing for me and another thing I'm gonna have to write off as lazy writing. There's also the car, but that's a lot easier to figure out and not as important. A car is replaceable. Ash has a hard time letting go of the past, so he bought another one just like the one he used to drive when he was young. That's a reasonable, easy explanation. But the book being intact needs to be given a little more attention than that.

Well the book was lit on fire but we didn't need it get consuned. This was something that was also explored in the reboot. They try to burn it but it doesn't get destroyed. It just kinda causes the deadites to freak out it seems.

As far as the car goes it seems like Ash has just kept the same car.

---

Also I'm tired of beheading being the end-all-be-all  of Deadite killing.  IT DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT.  IT NEVER WORKED LIKE THAT. I will say that for as many times as they do it.

[/spoiler]

I know we already talked about this in a previous post.  I just wonder why this annoy you NOW and not over 20 years ago.  The Deadite's Death in Army of Darkness have no sense at all.  This is something I hated from Army of Darkness because they drastically changed the rules.  Once again they changed the rules but I think the show is a good compromise.  

Army of Darkness Deadites Death :

1) Acrobatic Deadite. Head severed = Status =  Death
 
2) Pit Deadite : Shot in the head and belly.  Fall back in the pit.  Status Harmless or Dead
 
3) Witch deadite : A few shots in the belly = Dead
 
4 )Evil Ash : Dismembered but resurrected by a lightening strike. No sense ???
 
5) Sheila : Stab by a lance in the guts.  Fall of a tower = No damage ???
 
6) S-mart Deadite.  Shot multiple times.  Status = Dead

THANK YOU

Overall I REALLY enjoyed this episode.  For it being our first live-action Evil Dead adventure with Ash Not written and directed by Raimi, I thought it was great.

I understand some of the cons and nit-picks but at the same time I feel we should keep in mind this is Evil Dead.

Not everything in the series makes sense or is consistent,  not everyone is an Oscar-nominee actor, the effects are gonna be cheesy, bot practical AND cgi.

As far as Ash in the first ep I don't see why fans are expecting Ash to be so different from where we left him almost 30 years ago for the FIRST EPISODE.  Expecting him to change drastically from he he was into someone else in the first ep is just silly.

As far as the cgi blood goes the only cgi blood I really noticed where maybe minor touch ups for Kelly's dad's death and the stabbing of her mom. Mr.Ropert's death doesn't count cause that was a cool lead-in to the title sequence anyway. Felt very 80s which loved!

The camera work was great and fit right into the style that Raimi has established without feeling like trying to copy off him.

As far as Ash killing the deadites, first guy got his head completely blown away, like Henrietta and the winged deadite at the end of Evil Dead 2, Robert got his head completely smashed away, so we only have 2 actual beheadings so far: Vivian and Mrs. Maxwell. And as pointed out before it's not the first time Ash has simply beheaded a deadite and that was it. First Deadite he faces in AoD gets their head cut off. Boom done. Who knows what the hell the "rules" are.

Evil Dead 1: Professor Know by says he fears the ONLY way is through the act of bodily dismemberment yet within the same film we see only one deadite get completely dismembered. 

Evil Dead 2 again, only ONE deadite completely dismembered.

AoD: only ONE complete dismemberment but then the same deadite gets reconstructed for a more terrifying Bad Ash.

Evil Dead (2013) reboot/sequel

Reintroduced the idea of rules:

1) Bodily dismemberment

2) Live Burial

3) Purification by fire

We actually see all of these used (at least in the extended cut)

 

[KingRob]

Alrighty, here we go -

On the mix of deaths:
The series has never been consistent either in how the possessed can be killed, or the storyline in general. So if this is the way things go now, I'm just going to roll with it.

On deadites:
This is me being an old fogie again, but I think as fans we agreed that deadites were a term strictly for AoD monsters that were warped by the evil (so I guess Henrietta would count at the end of EDII). Am I wrong there?

On the parents:
Staying away from trailers and future episode spoilers as best as possible, but I'm down to see them return. Especially Mimi - I too was bummed when her head said nothing.

On the music/lullaby:
Nice to hear the music again and the song was a nice touch, but did feel a little too out of place for me.

The thing no one's mentioned:
The establishing shot with the windmill in the foreground is, I believe, a duplicate of a windmill shot in AoD.

My general thoughts on the episode:
I like it. It's definitely it's own beast, but so was every other ED movie/game/comic. It's clear we're going to be faced with a lot of camp, which lessens the horror elements for me, but is still enjoyable. Still not sure about the whole lady cop thing, but curious to see where it goes. Personally, I would have loved to have seen her completely lose her shit and exist only on the fringes of sanity.

More maybe later - wife's family showed up so I'm off to dinner!

 

[chainsaw_master]

Alrighty, here we go -

On the mix of deaths:
The series has never been consistent either in how the possessed can be killed, or the storyline in general. So if this is the way things go now, I'm just going to roll with it.

On deadites:
This is me being an old fogie again, but I think as fans we agreed that deadites were a term strictly for AoD monsters that were warped by the evil (so I guess Henrietta would count at the end of EDII). Am I wrong there?

On the parents:
Staying away from trailers and future episode spoilers as best as possible, but I'm down to see them return. Especially Mimi - I too was bummed when her head said nothing.

On the music/lullaby:
Nice to hear the music again and the song was a nice touch, but did feel a little too out of place for me.

The thing no one's mentioned:
The establishing shot with the windmill in the foreground is, I believe, a duplicate of a windmill shot in AoD.

My general thoughts on the episode:
I like it. It's definitely it's own beast, but so was every other ED movie/game/comic. It's clear we're going to be faced with a lot of camp, which lessens the horror elements for me, but is still enjoyable. Still not sure about the whole lady cop thing, but curious to see where it goes. Personally, I would have loved to have seen her completely lose her shit and exist only on the fringes of sanity.

More maybe later - wife's family showed up so I'm off to dinner!

I believe the term Deadite was introduced in Evil Dead 2

---

Another quick comment: as much as I'm loving this series I wish it had even LESS Army of Darkness DNA. I'd prefer a more balance horror/comedy like Evil Dead 2.  I mean the horror is straight horror, but the camp feels like it's reaaaaaally straddling between Evil Dead 2 humor and Army of Darkness.  I know AoD is very much beloved (dunno why) but I just wish it was more like Evil Dead 2. Especially Ash. Him as a slight idiot and a jackals is cool but he feels too much like AoD Ash who is very out of character compared to ED 1 and 2.

In other news info about the soundtrack has been released:

http://bloody-disgusting.com/news/3369664/ash-vs-evil-dead-original-soundtrack-details-revealed-exclusive/

 

[Joem1k]

Spoiler

Holy shit, were going to go deeper into the lore behind the book in episode 3, i really wanna see who the hell these dark ones are. *Excited* 

Here's the clip i'm talking about.

Spoiler

[video=youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkIhHfEw0iA[/video]

 

[chainsaw_master]

Spoiler

Holy shit, were going to go deeper into the lore behind the book in episode 3, i really wanna see who the hell these dark ones are. *Excited* 

Here's the clip i'm talking about.

Spoiler

[video=youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkIhHfEw0iA[/video]

HOLY SHIT
Nice find!

 

[DyD]

Well the book was lit on fire but we didn't need it get consuned. This was something that was also explored in the reboot. They try to burn it but it doesn't get destroyed. It just kinda causes the deadites to freak out it seems.

As far as the car goes it seems like Ash has just kept the same car.

The book wasn't in ED2. In that movie, the characters only had the missing pages that Annie brought to the cabin with her. I always saw this plot point as acknowledgment from the filmmakers that the book was in fact destroyed in the first film. AoD takes place in medieval times, before the book was destroyed. That's why the book is intact in that movie. It stays in the past by the end of the film.

The car was wrecked in AoD and also stayed in the past if they're going by the theatrical ending. So it can't be the same car. But like I said before, the car doesn't need an explanation. Ash could've easily gotten a new one that just looks like the old one. The book, however, needs an explanation. They need to at least touch on the subject, even if it's just to say the book regenerated itself like in the remake (I don't count anything from the remake as official). If they don't address this in any way, it just seems really lazy to me, like they don't give a damn about properly connecting this show's story to the film series.

It's true that the films were never big on continuity or consistency, but none of their omissions and inconsistencies were ever this big or so heavily tied to the plot.

As far as Ash killing the deadites, first guy got his head completely blown away, like Henrietta and the winged deadite at the end of Evil Dead 2, Robert got his head completely smashed away, so we only have 2 actual beheadings so far: Vivian and Mrs. Maxwell. And as pointed out before it's not the first time Ash has simply beheaded a deadite and that was it. First Deadite he faces in AoD gets their head cut off. Boom done. Who knows what the hell the "rules" are.

The problem isn't that some of the deadites are going quiet after getting their heads separated from their bodies. The problem is that they're specifically stating that removing the head will get rid of them for good every time, without a doubt. That's a new rule they're making up that directly contradicts stuff we've seen in the films. Even worse, it contradicts stuff that ASH has seen before. That's what made the dispatching of Kelly's mom in this episode particularly weird. If they had at least shown us some decapitated heads still talking or severed limbs moving, I wouldn't have any problem with this. Like you said, they never made any official "rules" about this in the films, but that's exactly what they seem to be doing now on the show.

I'm gonna put my next comment in spoiler tags because it contains info from future episodes...

Spoiler

This new "golden rule" of deadite killing they've made up will make things particularly weird if the rumors that Linda returns towards the end of the series are true. That will make absolutely zero sense even within the show itself.

@KingRob - The show is still fun and I'm having a blast watching. I'll only make up my mind about it after I'm done watching the entire first season. Then I'll judge it as a whole and see what I feel they did right and what they did wrong. For now, I'm just rolling with it as well.

@Joem1k -

Spoiler

I also can't wait to get more info about the dark ones.

 

[Kain]

Spoiler

Holy shit, were going to go deeper into the lore behind the book in episode 3, i really wanna see who the hell these dark ones are. *Excited* 

Here's the clip i'm talking about.

Spoiler

[video=youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkIhHfEw0iA[/video]

HOLY SHIT
Nice find!

Wow. Starz really loves spoiling the episodes before they air.

 

[MaidOfKandar]

So...at this point is Kelly (or anyone else for that matter) supposed to be in-the-know about how the evil came back, and that it's Ash's fault?

I mean, putting aside her incredibly underplayed reactions to everything that happens to her parents between episodes 1 & 2 (really hoping Dana finds her groove because so far she's the weak link IMO) does she ever "get" that Ash is responsible for the desecration of her mother, and the death of her father? Not only did he release the evil, but he's the bait - aka he's the reason Kelly's family is targeted. Really hope they address this at some point...

Otherwise, fantastic episode, and LOVED the interaction between Bruce & Mimi. 

Keep em' coming!

I really hope this eventually becomes a plot point; we know Pablo knows and that could be a stumbling block for him and Kelly as time goes on.

@chainsaw_master: Already stated that the problem isn't the fact that "the canon has been inconsistent" with the kills (which it hasn't, bodily dismemberment has always been the key phrase and even in AOD it's used with Bad Ash and no I don't count the remake's choice to burn and bury its Deadites into this equation because it's supposed to be "A different timeline with different rules" even according to Fede himself), it's the monotony of the deaths.  Headshot, beheading, headshot, sliced head, and then the Deadites just die, without moving a single muscle or continuing to protest.

Spoiler

I know the next episode will apparently change that when Ruby stumbles on Kelly's family farm, but when it's not happening during the kill scenes it's annoying and distracting. They're going down way too easily.

You could mention that they all die immediately with minor damage in AOD, but we all know why that happened (Sam and Bruce and Rob were striving to work in the MPAA system). It's getting formulaic, for a franchise that never was.   

Just because it's Evil Dead doesn't mean we should settle for less, or not want more, if you catch my drift.  Especially about the CGI, when they spent the entire press tour bragging about their practical effects and how much real fake blood they used (and they also clearly sweetened the blood effect when Ash was sawing off Suzy's head).

To me it feels like Army of Darkness-style humor and characterization with the occasional attempt at ED2-style melodrama/seriousness and ED1's gore. Trying to please everyone at the same time, basically.  Amanda's story feels like it was flown in from the X-Files tho.

ETA: The soundtrack listing is filled with spoilery titles so beware if you don't want to be spoiled for future episodes.

@Joe:

Spoiler

My only question is - if only a "very evil or very stupid" person would dare to release the Evil, where does that leave Knowby, who's a chaotic good at best?

 

[DyD]

@MaidOfKandar - I wish we could "like" posts on this forum. If we could, that post of yours would get all the likes I could give it. I make your words my own on all those subjects.

 

[chainsaw_master]

@Gut0nez

More than just the book has been "ignored" in the films that were major plot points. Because of all the BTS B.S Evil Dead 2 completely ignores almost everything that happened in terms first one except for a few things. 

Despite wanting to hate (unjustly) and ignore the reboot/sequel, it's safe to say their idea about the book is what happened in the main series: it wasn't consumed by the fire. Sure we don't see it at all in the cabin  but that doesn't mean anything.  As stated before there's tons of inconsistencies with this series. Most if not all the key/major props and even Ash's wardrobe have changed drastically through the entire series.

As for the car, as far as we know it's the same because the theatrical ending does show if he goes to the cave. But one can assume he goes to the cave with his car like the original ending. Would make more sense than leaving it behind.

And they never stated any rules about killing off a deadite. 
It just so happens that thus far all the deadite kills have been from removing the head. Doesn't necessarily mean they have made that the rule and it'll be like that every episode. 

@MaidOfKandar 

DDeadite kills HAVE been incoinconsistent throughout the films. Not every deadite in all the films was defeated with complete bodily dismemberment.  I already stated that in my previous comment. Each film has only had ONE deadite completely dismembered.  All the other ones in TED, ED2, and AoD have been killed in vvarying way.

Just cause something looks like CGI doesn't mean it is. I'm sure the decapitation of Mrs.Maxwell was practical. Just like people think the blood vomit in the reboot was CGI, but it was practical. If any CGI was used at all for her beheading it was very little.

 

[DyD]

More than just the book has been "ignored" in the films that were major plot points. Because of all the BTS B.S Evil Dead 2 completely ignores almost everything that happened in terms first one except for a few things. 

Despite wanting to hate (unjustly) and ignore the reboot/sequel, it's safe to say their idea about the book is what happened in the main series: it wasn't consumed by the fire. Sure we don't see it at all in the cabin  but that doesn't mean anything.  As stated before there's tons of inconsistencies with this series. Most if not all the key/major props and even Ash's wardrobe have changed drastically through the entire series.

Stuff like props and clothes are just details. None of that stuff has any effect on the actual story. Please, tell me what other major plot points were ignored from one movie to the next? If you're referring to the beginning of Evil Dead 2 where only Ash and Linda go the cabin, that is just a streamlined recap of the first film. I'm not entirely sure, but I think they did it that way because they couldn't use footage from the first film or because they wanted to make it more streamlined for people who hadn't seen it. Evil Dead 2's story begins when the force throws Ash through the woods. They even used the exact same shot from the ending of the first film to clue you in. Ash's reaction to the bridge being down could be seen as forgetfulness due to stress. The first Evil Dead shows Ash's first night in the cabin and Evil Dead 2 shows the second. It's the same with the beginning of AoD. The beginning of AoD expands on Evil Dead 2's ending, but it's essentially the same thing. Actually, you could pretty much edit all three films together without heading into any problems with the story. Other than a couple of details (like props and clothes), the story flows almost seamlessly. There are no major inconsistencies in the overall arc of the story. The only inconsistency is in tone. I also wanna remind you that the show clearly states that Ash went to the cabin with his friends and the flashback shows stuff from both the first Evil Dead and Evil Dead 2.

The remake happens in a completely different universe than the original films. What happens in the remake has no bearing whatsoever in the original series. It has its own mythology and it differs in many ways from the original films. So, no, it isn't "safe to say" that what happened in the remake is what happened in the main series. It's a completely separate storyline. As I said in my post, they could explain the book being intact in the show by using that stuff from the remake, but it needs to be addressed within the show. That's my point. The remake doesn't count.

As for the car, as far as we know it's the same because the theatrical ending does show if he goes to the cave. But one can assume he goes to the cave with his car like the original ending. Would make more sense than leaving it behind.

The theatrical ending doesn't show Ash going into the cave. It transitions from Ash riding the horse away from Sheila into the S-Mart scene. In the theatrical cut, the car is never seen again after it crashes during the battle. Also, in the theatrical ending they never say anything about the potion making him sleep. The wiseman just says the potion will take him back to his time after he says the words. It doesn't imply in any way that he could take the car with him, nor that he would want to. Imagine that you never saw the original ending where he sleeps too long (it effectively doesn't exist in this storyline)... How would you come up with that theory based solely on the information the movie gave you? Plus, that thing wasn't even a car anymore by the end of the film. It can't be the same car, man. But like I said, the car doesn't really matter in the end. It could easily be replaced. That would be a much better explanation in my mind than saying it's actually the same car and that he brought it back with him from the past.

Seriously, I don't even know why we're arguing about all of this.

And they never stated any rules about killing off a deadite. 
It just so happens that thus far all the deadite kills have been from removing the head. Doesn't necessarily mean they have made that the rule and it'll be like that every episode. 

Actions speak louder than words. I would agree with that reasoning after the first episode, but on this second one, they clearly focused on removing the head to stop deadites, particularly when it came to getting rid of Kelly's mom. Given what we know from the films (and what Ash already knows), that scene was really odd to watch. It felt like something was missing from it. If Mrs. Maxwell's head is still living in the next episode (and I hope it will be), I will gladly drop this complaint. Still, the easy way deadites are getting disposed of in these first two episodes still bothers me. They're giving up way too easily.

 

[MaidOfKandar]

@chainsaw_master: Even if canon's inconsistent on how to dispose of a Deadite, the kills are still monotonous in my opinion.  I'll agree to disagree on that on that.

It's honestly no big deal that they're using CGI - they admitted they were going to mix effects this season right up front - it's how it looks on film.  The wildly inconsistent tone has left me with no clue if it's intentional and we're supposed to take it as a stroke of camp.  It might be that, but the amount of bragging suggests we're supposed to take this seriously.  The problem might even be that the mostly practical effects look digital due to the way they filmed them.

Also there's nothing 'unjust' about hating or not hating the remake/reboot/whatever.  People either like it or dislike it. 

Also the blood vomit in the remake was touched up with CGI.  We're talking about post sweetening here, tiny little digital tweaks that look worse on the small screen than the big.  on a movie screen it's harder to notice.  In HD?  It's very noticeable.

@Gut0nez is right about the car - even more importantly, the car in AOD is turned into the Deathcoaster.  Unless Ash dismantled it and put it all back together it's not the same car, but I buy the idea of him purchasing a second 'Classic' sometime in the ensuing thirty years.

Seriously, I don't even know why we're arguing about all of this.

Because it's intriguing!

 

[mhb2862]

We're talking about post sweetening here, tiny little digital tweaks that look worse on the small screen than the big.  on a movie screen it's harder to notice.  In HD?  It's very noticeable.

That's not how that works at all. Your HD broadcast from Starz is 720p. If you're going to a theater these days, you're seeing a movie projected digitally at 4k or 8k, from a source that's at least 4k. Even if you saw it on film (or it was shot on film, both of which are rare these days), film has a much higher "resolution" than commercially available digital formats. Film isn't made up if pixels, so you don't really measure resolution the same way, but the same point applies; film can capture more information than digital at this point. Even a Blu-ray copy of a movie is 1080p, which is more than an HDTV broadcast.

 

[MaidOfKandar]

Whatever the technical specs are, they aren't doing them any favors.  That's all I'm saying.

 

[mhb2862]

Whatever the technical specs are, they aren't doing them any favors.  That's all I'm saying.

It has nothing to do with technical specs, movies vs. TV, HD vs. SD, or anything else. It all comes down to time and budget. The CG in Ash vs. Evil Dead is of a lower quality because it is done quickly and cheaply on fast-paced schedule and tight budget. Not to nitpick or anything. Just making sure the facts are straight for the record 

 

[Nick el Ass]

COMING BACK WITH REPLIES!

Good catch on the fly buzz, Joe; that was actually a pretty neat, subtle note.

I wonder what kind of significance "here" might have.  Will the letters re-arrange at a certain point?

@Joe - is one of the posters on Kelly's wall from the same band that Mia was into in the remake?  I'm trying to figure that out and pause-stepping didn't help me at all.

As Dana said the first episode was "free," and episode two was "here" so my guess is eventually we will get a cool little sentence if they keep it up through all 10 episodes. I would think it would be a bit of a scramble though.

 

[MaidOfKandar]

I really want to see what it changes to when

Spoiler

Kelly gets possessed in an episode.